Money in Politics

First-Time Candidate Fundraising

April 22, 2020 CallTime.AI Season 1 Episode 8
Money in Politics
First-Time Candidate Fundraising
Chapters
Money in Politics
First-Time Candidate Fundraising
Apr 22, 2020 Season 1 Episode 8
CallTime.AI

Fundraising can be a daunting task for any campaign, but especially for a first-time candidate. Karl Frisch was recently elected to the Fairfax County Public School Board in Virginia - the 10th largest school division in the United States that serves more than 188,000 students. He not only ran as a first-time candidate, but in the process, he raised an unprecedented amount of money. Karl joins the Money in Politics Podcast to talk about how he prepared to fundraise for the first time, to help dispel some first-time fundraising myths, and to discuss the influence of money in local elections.

Show Notes Transcript

Fundraising can be a daunting task for any campaign, but especially for a first-time candidate. Karl Frisch was recently elected to the Fairfax County Public School Board in Virginia - the 10th largest school division in the United States that serves more than 188,000 students. He not only ran as a first-time candidate, but in the process, he raised an unprecedented amount of money. Karl joins the Money in Politics Podcast to talk about how he prepared to fundraise for the first time, to help dispel some first-time fundraising myths, and to discuss the influence of money in local elections.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   0:04
This is Andrew Blumenfeld. You're listening to the money in politics podcast. We hear a lot from first time candidates in our travels on this podcast, on our website, we're very frequently engaging with those who have taken on the task of running for office for the first time. And they have a lot of questions, and that is something that makes a whole lot of sense to me. Running for office is a highly unusual experience, So if you're taking the Endeavour seriously, you likely do have a lot of questions. And if you work with or around a candidate or a campaign, these kinds of questions may not just be unique to first time candidates. The money aspect of it all the raising and the spending is understandably a big source of anxiety and sometimes even frustration, that sits at the heart of those questions. So I was hoping that as part of this podcast, we could find ways to unpack some of that to help folks understand. With the process of being a first-time candidate, specifically fundraising as a first-time candidate, what that looks like, kind of get to the heart of what makes it sometimes anxiety-inducing, and hopefully alleviate some of that anxiety in doing so. I think this is gonna be powerful for two reasons. One is that we'd like to demystify some of this. A lot of it can feel really opaque, and I know a lot of people listening are themselves first time candidates or work with first time candidates. So hopefully we can just dispense with some of the myths and mystery that surrounds the process of being and fundraising as a first time candidate. But the other piece is that it turns out that a lot of these best practices, the things that we want first-time candidates to know and understand and believe, these are things that are tremendously useful to candidates, even very seasoned ones, and tremendously useful to campaigns that are fundraising truly at all levels. So I think it could be helpful for anyone who is interested in the money and politics topic, too. Take a closer look at that first time candidate experience. So, to that end today, I'm speaking with Karl Frisch. Karl was recently elected to the Fairfax County Public Schools School Board, which is located in Virginia. Karl was a first-time candidate when he ran for this position last year, and it was no small task. Fairfax County Public Schools is the 10th largest school division in the United States, it serves more than 188,000 students. And not only was Karl running for that seat as a first-time candidate, he did so while raising an unprecedented sum of money to fuel his candidacy. And then yes, he did win that election and now serves on that school board today. So I thought that his experiences might be informative for others, and I'm excited to chat with him today. The money and politics podcast is brought to you by CallTime.AI.

Sponsor:   2:54
You're listening to money in politics, brought to you by CallTime.AI. Campaigning is hard. Why not make fundraising easy? Using automation and artificial intelligence CallTime.AI lets you fundraise five times faster with easy to use tools like instant donor research, automated voice mail drop and donor scoring. So you're always calling the right person, at the right time, with the right ask. Go online to CallTime.AI to schedule a demo and start your free trial today.  

Andrew Blumenfeld:   3:25
So I'm here with Karl Frisch. Thank you so much for joining me, Karl.

Karl Frisch:   3:29
My pleasure.  

Andrew Blumenfeld:   3:30
Well, before we dive too deeply into our topic today, why don't you start by sharing with folks a little bit about your background? Your a new school board member. But how did you get there?

Karl Frisch:   3:39
Well, I had to run, believe it or not, they didn't just want to give it to me. Um, So I ran in 2019 which seems like a long time ago, um, and was elected this past November. My campaign was about a year, and leading up to that, I worked in public policy and in a former life in my twenties, I did a lot of campaign works as well. My partner's a teacher in the school district here, so school issues have been on my radar for a while now.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   4:06
That's great. And you had some pretty interesting stats, I believe, about the fundraising and financials of your race. I wonder. I know it does seem now at this point, like quite a long way away 2019 was. But if you have any key stats you can share with us about your fundraising, that would be great.

Karl Frisch:   4:21
Sure. Well, I raised more money than any school board candidate has ever raised in Virginia and and had more donors, I think, than all but one candidate in the county. So that was, like 1500 people and more donations than anybody. Single donation, you know? Yeah, than anybody. So those are all things that I'm proud of. And I knew that when you run for school board, it's not like people are beating on your door to give you $1000 check, right? Right. So its volume and those small dollar donations you're doing call time for 25 bucks, you know, it's it. It adds up. But that's how you've got to do it.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   4:57
Well, you were a first time candidate, right? So also, in addition to the fact that it's a school board race, it's also not the case that you're an incumbent running with prior campaign lists before, right? So you were able to amass all of that in your first campaign, which is really quite impressive.

Karl Frisch:   5:12
Well, I mean, I know that the one thing even back when I was working on campaigns before the Internet was like fully solidified, like my last campaign was Howard Dean. So things have come a long way even since then. I knew that time is the only resource that you can't replicate during a campaign. So super early on when I was at a candidate training cause I'm like they're certainly must be things I don't know about campaigning. And, you know, I used to ride my candidates when I was a consultant or a campaign person that just because they think they know better that you're paying these people for a reason. So I went to a candidate training and in the portion about communications where I, you know, that's what I do with my life is communications where I thought I had a pretty good handle on things. I started doing the homework they had given us for building our lists. And so it started with assembling all of my address books from all of my different email accounts, deduping those, checking my linkedin and my Facebook to make sure I drew everybody else in making sure that literally everybody from my orbits were in one central place. And then I tagged those people based on where I knew them from, whether I should ask them for money at all, whether there was anybody who was not going to ask this person. And then I tagged people who I should go ahead and ask people that needed a phone call to make that happen and people that I should ask for a larger than normal contribution from, and that took a long time. And I'm glad I did it before anything was really going on in the campaign because I don't know where I would have found that time any other time in the campaign.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   6:43
It's an interesting issue that you raised that it's one we certainly encounter as we talk to a lot of campaigns about essentially, how much groundwork has to be laid and how far ahead of time. I think there's certainly to extremes we encounter. Sometimes folks who believe that you had to have been doing that kind of network building and excavation of your network and kind of preparing yourself to have a donor universe for years and years and years, a lifetime before you can get ready and then there are other people who I think jump into it and think that there's just gonna be some magical list they can buy from somebody and call to that. But your story is one that makes me think that there's a happier middle to that. And I wonder you did work in public policy and you have worked in public policy and you have a background working in some capacity and campaigns. How much did that lend itself to you having a successful fundraising effort during your campaign?

Karl Frisch:   7:33
I didn't buy any fundraising list like I know a lot of candidates do. Certainly not for school board. There's nobody sitting a home excited to get a phone call from a school board candidate that they don't know. Right, right? It's not like I'm running for Congress or something. So the list had to be mine. What I did pay to have done is once I had my list cleaned up with names, addresses, phone numbers, any kind of information that I that could identify the person. I did have 3rd party company upend that data with what could be a more recent phone number, email address or address, because there were a lot of people in my address book that were either former colleagues or people I went to with the high school with, that I have not spoken to in decades. And, you know, I raised a good amount of money from those people that I've not spoken to in a very, very long time. So I think that people tend to think in campaigns that they're different than every other person who's ever run for for office. It's not true. The rules of political physics apply to you just as much as they do everybody else. You're not Barack Obama, right? Even Barack Obama was only able to expand the electorate by half a percentage point. You're not better than he is. You have to do the things that successful candidates do!

Andrew Blumenfeld:   8:49
And it's also a good point about probably the right marriage between, I'll call it the work the campaigning candidate does versus what can be outsourced, whether to technology or otherwise, because, as you're pointing out, you really had to bring to bear your own network and analysis of that network. But then going as far as finding everybody's phone number or catching all the details you need, there's certainly some outsourcing of that that could be done, but That's probably the right equation, I think, right? Not just saying Oh, someone will bring me the name of somebody. Well that's probably a loser in alot of  instances,

Karl Frisch:   9:21
No, I can't think of anybody that I called for a contribution that I didn't know. Maybe I knew them less well than I knew other people. But I had at least met them, right? And I know that that is not the case for a lot of campaigns, because you may not have the personal network that is enough to fund a campaign. But when you're running for school board, you have to get comfortable with the idea that you're literally going to ask everybody that you've met and everybody that you meet. So I would go to these events, any event and my number one in the back of my head, in addition that, like, what? Was I gonna stay? Who did I have to meet? I would think how am I gonna get the list of people who were here? Or I would be keeping a track on my phone, the names of the people I met so that I could look them up in the van later and reach out to them, and I may not ask him for a contribution that first time we chatted unless we really hit it off. But I would eventually ask them for a contribution.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   10:16
I would say candidates have to sort of expand the meaning of the word network. Right? So you have to conceive of it. Not just of the people who you would normally think I would invite this person to my birthday party, but also someone who Yeah, I just met on the campaign trail. Or maybe someone I haven't talked to in years, and that could be awkward and uncomfortable. But is it more uncomfortable and awkward to ask someone who you've never talked to in your entire life? Maybe you feel some callousness around that because you don't have a personal relationship. But in terms of the likelihood of success, someone you haven't talked to in years or someone you've never met before, right?

Karl Frisch:   10:48
Well, it's also about the approach to those different groups of people, right? So I had high school and college and all of my different jobs throughout my career, and I had my LGBT softball league friends. I had friends that work in progressive media in those circles. So all of these different categories of people that I had to figure out the approach to and for folks that I haven't spoken to in a long time. I think most people are never called timed by somebody who's running for office night, right? They never get a phone call, so it's kind of weird sometimes. Now, it's good to have software that tells you whether they're actually an active donor to other people, because then maybe they are getting called timed. Or maybe they did give that 20 bucks to Obama and 2012 or whatever uh, like everybody else did. But for people who haven't been call timed, you could make a joke out of. It doesn't have to be serious just because you're running for something serious and I would often tell people like I can't believe I'm doing this. But you know, the alternative is relying on special interest money, and I would much rather be funded by my friends and make an ass of myself by asking them for money. And then we were both chuckle. But that was an honest conversation. It is embarrassing to ask your friends for money,

Andrew Blumenfeld:   12:00
Sure. It actually, it raises a lot of this raises for me, a question that it's something I think about a lot. And it's certainly something people talk to us about a lot. Which is is it really fair or reasonable to say that truly anyone can run for office credibly if we are also saying that you are going to have to largely rely on your own network? In other words, if you're not someone who has in their network financial capacity, whether that's more modest, or more or exuberant financial capacity. But whatever it is that it would take to fund whatever that office is that you're running for, I guess what caveats do, we have to add to this idea that Oh, sure, anyone can run for office credibly. That sounds like there might be limitations to that. What's your take on it?

Karl Frisch:   12:44
Well, the qualifier and that is the word credibly, right? If lots of people run for office, Yeah, very. You know, not as many people run credibly right. And what I mean by that is it is one thing to have a passion around a set of issues that you care about that you feel maybe your incumbent member or the body at large is not doing right by. It is entirely another thing to figure out, How do I take that passion, Translate it to an electoral strategy that makes sense. Could it even be fathomable that it makes sense? It is one thing to run for office, where you have a decent shot of winning or a 50 50 shot. Or if lightning strikes and you're in the right place, you have a good shot at winning. It is an entirely another thing to run just for the sake of running. And there are a lot of people who run just for the sake of running. Then again, there are a lot of people who think that the rules of politics don't apply to them, that they don't have to go door. knocking. That they don't have to spend lots of time on the phone. That because people now raise money on the Internet, that they can only, you know, they can rely on emails alone. All of these things that are just sending the wrong message to a candidate lead to a lazy candidate who's not willing to do the harder work that's required of people who are successful. You don't want to end up in the closing months of a campaign not able to fund your budget, right? The converse of this talk of raising money is withholding from spending money, right? I mean, a lot of candidates, especially first time candidates, spend it on junk they don't need right, right? They don't hold on to it like they should. I've always been told that you save seven out of every $10 for that last period of paid engagement. Meaning however much you can raise. You started the election day and work your way back. And you, how long can you fund your mail or digital campaign from that point backwards? And you don't start it until you can continue doing it without stopping. And a lot of people will spend their money on T shirts and yard signs to, you know, win the arms race of yard signs in the community because you just don't know. It's different here with yard signs, which is literally with every local candidate thinks about where

Andrew Blumenfeld:   14:52
Oh no no no ,it really matters here.

Karl Frisch:   14:54
In the closing week of the campaign. I got 25 phone calls from friends and supporters telling me that they saw my opponent putting giant yard signs all over the district and that they were only seeing a handful of mine in neighborhoods I'm like, That's because I bought 150. According to campaign finance reports, she spent 2/3 of her money on signs. We're gonna be fine.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   15:14
Yeah, exactly. What are some of those other, you were alluding to them there just then. But are there other myths that you think first time candidates have that they should you need to dispense with? If you really want to run a credible campaign

Karl Frisch:   15:29
That you can rely on the party apparatus to build your campaign to fund your campaign just because you have the D next to your name or the R next year name does not mean that they will do the work for you, especially if you're in an area where you're not necessarily targeted because you might be safe. If you actually get the Democratic endorsement or Republican endorsement, it is still on your shoulders. You may have a strong party in your community, but they want to help people who look like they've got it together, right? So there's that again doing call time, actually spending time on the doors. Now I realize that some candidates are running giant races where door knocking is not necessarily the best use of their time. But when you're running locally, it's certainly is if you're not spending time raising money or talking to voters that have not already committed to voting for you. One of the other things is that they have to be a candidates who think that they have to be at every event in their community. And if they stop and think for a second, am I meeting anybody knew, or am I seeing the same 50 people at every event that I go to? And then you ask yourself, the question is this required of me? And you have to answer those questions honestly, right? Is it better for me to make 30 voters tonight, or is it better for me to meet the same 50 people again tonight? So I think those were some of the common ones. I mean, yard signs. We're always gonna be a point of contention. I think that you need to buy enough to get the people who think that they matter off your back will be a modest sum. But you shouldn't spend money on anything else. I got buttons because I'm kind of a political button freak.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   16:58
Yeah

Karl Frisch:   16:59
But I didn't make my campaign pay form like I held on to that campaign money. Like every dollar that came into my door or into my website or through call time was held on to until the last two months of the election. Yeah, for two reasons. One, How do you go and ask your friends for money and then waste it right? And one of the motivators for me to continue door knocking even through horrible Virginia summers and during the World Series with the nationals in the series and with rain was How do I tell my friends that invested thousands of dollars in my campaign that I could have knocked on thousands of more doors if I just gotten off my but and done it. 

Andrew Blumenfeld:   17:38
Yeah. Yeah.

Karl Frisch:   17:39
So all of those types of things that candidates think about they are not different.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   17:44
Yeah, it's there seemed to be it some level in and you brought it up when you're talking about. The emphasis on the word credible right? Is thinking about your campaign just strategically right, applying sort of cost benefit analysis to whether or not you attend this event or you do that activity or if you spent make that expenditure. It does also presume right that the candidate is thinking about their race as a strategic endeavor, right, that it's not one and the same to say that I think things were wrong in my community and I'm the person to fix them. And that is one of the same with doing anything right in the absence of having a strategy and a plan to run a credible campaign, which for some people, they I almost think they think there's a virtuous quality to No, no, I'm not gonna do any of that stuff. Well, there's nothing virtuous about just saying that you think things are wrong, which is us all you're essentially doing if you're not willing to do the work of a credible campaign,

Karl Frisch:   18:33
Also, you're gonna be surrounded by people who agree with you during the entire campaign. Sure, do not for a minute think that that is representative of the entire community. Not that people would disagree with you, but that people are actually thinking about you. Nobody is. Nobody is. The voters en mass are not knowledgeable of who their candidates are for any office. Except maybe the congressman has been around for 30 years. And that's only maybe, all right, they don't know who their school board candidates are. They don't know their city council or county supervisors are again. There are exceptions to the rule, but they don't know who you are. They likely don't know what the local issues are. So your goal should not be, How do I educate the population about the finer points of city policy? Right. It should be. How do I get elected so that I can tackle the problems that I see with city policy, right? Right now, you're gonna want a contrast with your opponents, of course, but the fundamentals of winning a campaign are not entirely on that minutia of policy, you need to know what you're talking about for certain, So you need to have an agenda that you want to pursue, but you need to have a plan for getting there. You need to have a strategy for your door knocking and funding your campaign and having enough to pay to communicate with people. And if you are right now running for office, the importance of having money in the bank account right now heading into November cannot be overestimated. All of the work that is typically done on the ground is likely to have to be done online in this election cycle. And so having an extra $30,000 or $10,000 or $5000 to spend in very targeted digital advertising reaching the people that you would normally be trying to knock on their door, all of that is gonna be critical.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   20:16
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. As, ah, new elected official then, you are not up for reelection for a bit. So you're not one of the people you were just giving some advice, too, for this November. But you will presumably be on the ballot. And that was gonna be my question. How do you think about it then? Now you don't have an election right around the corner. But it is you just that it never stops. How do you as an elected official, sort of think about fundraising? How does that contrast with how you thought about it as a first time candidate?

Karl Frisch:   20:42
Well, the first time I ran, I had less than a year until the election I started running, I think January 5th and the election was the first week of November. This time I've got four years that presumes that I want to run for reelection, who knows, right. But I'm not gonna put myself in the position of deciding that and having an empty bank account, right? Right. I had money left over a little bit of money left over after spending on my campaign and spending to elect some of my colleagues. And so I held on to that, not spending it, and early on I started trying to sign people up so that they would give monthly contributions of those can pay overtime. I'm doing some online zoom events where I bring in friends that people might want to hear me talk to offers and that kind of stuff. And so I'm not charging for those, But people are more than you know. I give them the option of giving me. I say, buy me a coffee or buy me a lot whatever. And so those things add up. Yeah, but I'm knowledgeable of how much it costs in my first race, and I'm trying to divide that over the time I have until which makes it a lot more manageable.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   21:46
But also, I assume, gives you an opportunity. And from your examples, I gather that you are seizing on that opportunity to do genuine sort of donor maintenance and relationship building, where not every interaction is a solicitation, which is obviously a very positive way to actually build that relationship over time.

Karl Frisch:   22:04
Most of it has not been, especially because of the circumstances we're now and nor should it be. But you know, I am taking time to sit on the phone and call people and see how they're doing, especially right now.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   22:13
Yeah, smart,

Karl Frisch:   22:13
because I do care.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   22:15
Yeah, absolutely.

Karl Frisch:   22:15
Also, it's different in other states, I know. But in Virginia, once you're not up for election, your campaign finance reports are only due twice a year so, the rush for raising money will be back loaded like it is for everybody, but I'm trying to spread it out a little bit. And I'm not doing any formal fundraising other than what's available on the side. You know, if you want to come to this event that we're doing on Zoom, that's great. And if you want to chip in 20 bucks or five bucks, that's great, too.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   22:44
Yeah, that's great. Shifting gears just a little bit. But the conversations I have with folks on this podcast and just elsewhere often touch on very naturally. What is the presumed corrosive influence of money over politics and trying to distinguish between sort of good money versus bad money and where it becomes problematic and what the fine line is between the problematic side of it and the sheer necessity of funding your message? So I guess, a lot of those conversations do happen either directly or sort of, It's just inferred that we're having a conversation at a federal or or higher office level. That tends to be the sorts of examples that are given often, that's just kind of the arena people seem to be talking in. But I wonder at the local level, what are your thoughts about tha? Is the conversation, Does it just totally transfer just whatever you're talking about, the corrosive influence of money in politics, the federal level that just applies as equally and is as true at the local level, Or is it fundamentally different in some way?

Karl Frisch:   23:41
People think that all people who run for officer corrupt by money yeah, just do it doesn't matter if you're different, Yeah, if you are truly different. And let's say that you only take $25 contributions or whatever, right people assume that it's only a matter of time until you're found out to have been doing something differently, right? So I don't take corporate contributions. Even though they're allowed. In Virginia, we have almost no, it's like the Wild West, even though we are in the East. There are no campaign contribution limits. There are no limits on who can give you money, whether it's a corporation, an individual, what a business, whatever. All of that stuff is legal. But I don't take corporate money. I don't take corporate PAC checks. I don't take money from Dominion Energy, which is one of the larger special interests in Virginia. But I guarantee you nobody sees the distinction, even though my average contribution was 50 bucks in the last election. So nobody sees a distinction, but I know. I will say that it probably makes serving easier. That said again, I ran for school board. So what does it look like when somebody runs for office and it costs six or seven times what it does or what I raised right? I think that's where your record comes in. It is one thing to say somebody is doing something because they got a contribution. It's another thing to actually demonstrate that that happened. So I encourage everybody. Don't take corporate money. It makes it a lot easier to make your case. Spend your time building. You know when you're raising money from people, and not that people are not involved in the corporate world or whatever. But when you're raising money from people, it gives you an interesting insight into things. And it also is part of building your campaign. These are not just people who are going to give you money, right. So I encourage people to build that. It's like focus on the size of your pool of friends and less on the other aspects at play.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   25:31
Yeah, it sounds like it may be that there's there's just more room for that at the local level, which is maybe why it's not as often included in the conversation about Not that it doesn't exist. Don't get me wrong, especially for really large school districts. You hear, all the time. You live in Los Angeles, you here all the time about the Los Angeles school board. This political issue vs that political issue. But if you live in a more modest-sized community, you probably don't think as overtly about the way in which the political contributions that had to be raised in the grand total of $30,000 to get elected to City Council. And maybe in part, that's because you can raise $30,000 from a really, really disciplined effort within your own network without ever having to make a call to a special interests or to an entity that you would feel less than proud of revealing was a supporter of yours.

Karl Frisch:   26:18
Yeah, well, and, you know, in here in Fairfax County, 10th largest school division in the country. $3.5 billion budget, $3.2 billion budget. 200,000 kids. People know that the school division is huge, one of the reasons that they move here because it's such a good school system. So I don't think that they really, like what always surprises them is that we don't get paid, what they think. We get paid, we don't have staff and we don't have offices. Those things always surprise people, especially because they assume that we're no different than everybody else, that we're rolling in money. When most school board candidates struggled to raise the $30,000 that you were mentioning, this cycle is a little differently because we have Our school board is 2/3 of it is entirely new. So you had a lot of first time candidates who really had to bust their humps to to get the money in the door. But people don't think of it is any differently, so they're always shocked when they learn.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   27:10
Yeah, well, last thing before I let you go is that I know part of your work in campaigns in public policy in the past has been with the Victory Fund that you're a former board member of the Victory Fund. I was hoping you could share with folks A. what the Victory Fund is for those who don't know, and also just how your experience with the Victory Fund and your experience as a gay candidate influence, if at all, the campaign process generally and fundraising more particularly.

Karl Frisch:   27:37
So. I got involved in Victory Fund like 10 years ago, not because I ever thought I'd run for something that I actually didn't think that I would end up running for something. And I think that certainly colors my relationship there, that I became friends with other board members. And they have a campaign board which is rather large and has members all over the country. And so you build those relationships and they're not transactional. None of these relationships should be treated like transactional. So Victory Fund did a good job of exposing me to other people who had run for office or running for office, who are LGBT Q  and I got to watch a lot of that close up. In some cases, I go out and go door knocking for people. And so also, I have been on the receiving end of more call time than I like to you know that I could probably count from LGBT candidates around the country and I've seen their fund raising up close. I know what it costs us to raise and spend etcetera. When I decided to run, I had to leave the Victory Fund campaign board because they don't allow that, obviously, And while they did endorse me, I knew better than to presume that anybody endorsing me would decide, You know what? That Karl is so special that of all the people were helping, he's the one that should get our money right? So they were very helpful in terms of gaming out certain things and connecting me with local members and whatnot. But the bulk of the effort was on my part, reaching out to people I knew through Victory Fund. I highly suggest people who are even remotely interested in one day may be doing this. Even just an inkling, go to, a candidate and campaign training from Victory Fund, go to their annual conference in Washington, D. C. You will learn a lot, and you will meet a lot of LGBT people with a passion for politics that you don't necessarily get wherever you happen to live. You'll meet tons of other elected officials from around the country, and you can pick their brains about what it's like.

Andrew Blumenfeld:   29:32
Yeah, that's great. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time. This has been super helpful, I think one of the perspectives that is most prevalent out there are first time candidates, right? I mean, I know what the stats are on it, but most people running for office or probably doing it for the first time. And nevertheless, it's not always easy. I have found for those folks, too, get their hands on really highly credible, highly informative, useful information. So thanks so much for sharing today.  

Karl Frisch:   29:56
My pleasure.  

Andrew Blumenfeld:   29:58
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